[Rob]

AMOF it seems to be turning out THE ONLY thing left in good shape was the pistons, rings, and cylinder walls *^@%(@#$*@$#*@$#*@#[email protected]#

First thoughts and look at the inside of my motor proved to be pretty impressive, and showed no major flaws (OR SO WE THOUGHT).

But as Sal got further into it, and ripped it down, he first found out the #7 Rod Bearing was eating itself up, and had damaged (grooved) that journal of the crank.

Now it turns out, the head gasket area is scorched on both heads, (and block deck in several places). I’m told I was VERY close to a head gasket blowout.

Now if that’s not bad enough, the Motor Shop checked the Block and Heads yesterday and found both are all warped, #*^@#$*@
#$*@#. Which of course now means the block has to be squared and decked, and the heads have to be milled, etc.

All I can say is TG Sal has a great working relationship with the machine shop, (and they specialize in Race Motor’s, and TG are Mod Motor experts.) And TG I have someone like Sal that is working extremely close with me, :smt023
THANKS SAL, I owe you BIG TIME [smilie=bow.gif]

Amazing how something can run so perfect, so strong, and so consistent, yet have so much wrong with it, (with hardly any miles on it, @12-13K). I guess they DON’T just explode as I thought, it seems as I always thought, they’re simply time bombs waiting to explode, and I was clearly on borrowed time.

But I guess when all is said and done, I’ll have myself one kick ass motor, all back to correct spec’s, and can only hope it last longer than 12 K this time before showing the type of damage we’re finding deep inside @#[email protected]#@*#@$%@[email protected]$

Lets hope there's no more bad news in the days ahead :sad:

Either way, THIS SPRING FOWARD, IS GOING TO ROCK :smt026

 

[wydopnthrtl]

I just know I'll go to my grave talking about THERMOCYCLES and very few will ever understanding what I'm talking about. :-?

Nitrous makes for a VERY hot burn and therefor a VERY big thermocycle. What your finding does'nt supprise me one bit. But hey the old addage of "you gotta pay to play" sure seems appropriate. I'm just glad that ole Ford held together fer ya. :smt023

Rich

 

[The Swede]

I bet you glad you decided to get new internals when you did !

 

[SVTDSG03]

You'r lucky is all i can say Rob. with that rod bearing felling its a wonder it held
up this long & not spit it out the side of the block. But hey its a Ford it held
together. Thats why i drive Fords can be broken & still run Now when they get
done with the new engine & everything is tunned go have some fun & put some
good time down & kick some but & take names later! [smilie=3gears.gif]

 

[Rob]

I just know I'll go to my grave talking about THERMOCYCLES and very few will ever understanding what I'm talking about.  :-?

Rich

Rich is that some kind of new MotorCycle
OR SOMETHING  :smt017
[smilie=laugh.gif]

I hear you rich, but still I wasn't expecting this at such low miles :shock:
Lets not forget hundreds (if not thousands of L's) have had head gasket issues ???
for all we know they leave Ford out of wack. (but OK I may have played a tiny part [smilie=popcorn.gif] hehehehehehe..................

All I know, is this SOB better be ready to handle A LOT more NITROUS
AND BOOST
AND HP
AND TORQUE
CAUSE IT'S COMING...................... [smilie=3gears.gif] :smt026

Thanks Guys, and HELLZ YA I'm glad I did it now Swede, WOW this could have ended up A LOT worse Bro, "YIKES".

And your right DSG03, it made it
:smt023 @ Ford

 

[Guest]

Lubrication is a problem on number 7.

 

[racetested]

I asked Trev about this post as he has decades of motor building experience along with nitrous tuning and designing. Here are his comments, take them how you will. Seems all of you are right in some regard.

First the journal, there's NO WAY nitrous could be "directly" responsible for that (although a badly designed one could be - like the Zex Rob had
before ours). Here are the probable causes;
1) Oil surge causing starvation (oil is thrown away from the sump pick up pipe on hard acceleration - something that MOST people NEVER think about or modify to deal with).
2) Oil starvation due to inadequate design or build.
3) detonation (proving the pistons and rods are very strong, for them not to break but transmit the load to the shells). This is VERY UNLIKELY with
our systems ESPECIALLY with a progressive unit but is MORE than likely with a fixed hit dry system like the Zex he had before. If it was done by the
Zex (which is the most likely candidate, this is an example of why it's so hard to prove which system is best on the same car because the first kit
could do the damage but the second kit could get the blame). He's also VERY LUCKY that he chose to switch systems as a few more runs on the fixed hit Zex would have killed his engine BIG TIME.I've NEVER had a customers engine suffer bottom end damage due to nitrous.

Now the headgasket, here are probable causes;
1) Loose headbolts
2) Stretched headbolts
3) Inadequate head gasket
4) Pre ignition or detonation raising the combustion pressures above the gaskets limits. This again could have been caused by the Zex system and
is VERY UNLIKELY to have been caused by ours, especially with a progressive.
Here's an example of why this is so;
The engine I used to develop the progressive system on was a 4 cylinder 700cc engine which kicked out 24 bhp. With the help of the first progressive
I increased the power by SIXTY bhp. One of my customers had a test ride and insisted on buying the prototype off me. I took the unit off and
DROPPED the jets from 60 to 40 bhp so that I could demo my fixed systems till I made a production run of progressive units. The next time I used the car I got the revs up (which I didn't have to worry about with the progressive) and waited till I was in 2nd gear with a bit of road speed. I activated the
nitrous and instantly BOOM!!!! A massive explosion happened. I stripped the engine to find the head gasket had been blown clean out from between the head and block BIG TIME!!!That was the ONLY damage, so I fitted a new gasket, fitted a new progressive and it's been fine on 60 bhp for the last God knows how many years. A FIXED HIT system puts FAR MORE LOAD on all parts especially headgaskets than a progressive system and our fixed hit systems are even less damaging than the US systems that HARD HT so you can imagine what the Zex kit would have done to my BABY engine!!! :-(

With regard to blocks and heads being warped, that's just the builder either covering himself (against potential future problems), or someone trying
to cash in on a bit of extra work on the build. ALL engines distort with use that's what happens when bits get heated up and cooled off frequently and after being subjected to the huge forces of combustion. There's a high probability that they are no worse than a standard motor would have been. A light skim is always a good bet (especially when using nitrous) to ensure good gasket sealing.

The other guys comments about thermocycles is fair enough for a US kit but but inappropriate for ours.

 

[Rob]

Denny, I don't blame the n20 on ANY OF THIS.
I've been spraying since 1979 AND HAVEN'T LOST A MOTOR YET 
Plus lets not forget people like Gator (and hundreds of others) have lifted heads (and in Gators case NOW TWICE, WITHOUT N20.

My guess is LOTS of OUR motors look like this inside, or at least the ones like me that race them every chance they get, and have the stock blocks running in the 11's.
People have been drilling it in our heads for years, the stock motor can only take so much

AMOF, here's a reply I put on another Forum

Thanks all, :thumbsup:

Cept you Gator, I hope you lift BOTH heads TRYING to keep up this season :lol:
(oh thats right, you already have TWICE TRYING TO BEAT ME)  hehehehehehe

(J/K pal, I would never wish harm on your Beast) YOU KNOW THAT(roll eyes) ; o )

As for rebuilding instead of buying, had I known then what I know now, I still would have rebuilt MY motor. And I still feel I'm better off this way, but what has me baffled is how it could run so frigging awesome, never skip a beat, never give me one single problem, and yet have so so much wrong inside, (confused) .

Plus for all I know the block and heads could have left Ford out of wack, lets never forget hundreds (if not thousands), of stock block L's have head + gasket issues WITHOUT N20) ???
I won't blame N20 on this AT ALL, and if it played even a small part, lets not forget I used the Zex kit for A LONG TIME,
and was hitting it ALL AT ONCE, so if any fingers point to n20,
I'm surly pointing towards the Zex design of Wam Bam Thank You Man, and not the Race Tested Kit and progressive delivery

To tell you the truth I kind of like the idea of a seasoned motor put back to spec, plus the Motor/Machine Shop that Sal uses builds many race motors, and they will not settle for anything less than a 100%. So I KNOW exactly what I am getting, and WHO built it. I'm getting back a motor in spec 100% and nothing less ; o )


As for the warping, I would think anytime you have Cast Iron and Alum bolted together, you can almost grrnty a warping problem, especially after you seperate them.

AND  LEAVE SAL ALONG he's busy right now

 

[SVTDSG03]

Hey Rob I havn't been in the Lightning or Cobra engine yet. But what I want
to ask is do our cylinder blocks have a copper O-ring & groove on the top of deck around the cylinders? The reason i'm asking this i'v got a 5.0 w/sc 5psi boost in the shop right now that as blown head gaskets this is the 2nd time. Now I was looking in MM&FF & theres story on Hooligan Hot Rod theres a tool they are using to cut the groove in with. Its called the Groove-O-matic by Iskenderian Racing Cams i think i'm gonna try this when i get the heads back and graphite gaskets. This might be something to think about if our engines havn't got this set up,when we put more boost (14psi over) or NOS (75 shot over) to these engines. I think this would help to keep from blowing head gaskets & warpping the heads in this area.

 

[camcojb]

Rob,

Since you're ignoring my question on your other thread.......... how much boost with how much nitrous do you plan to run?

Jody

 

[racetested]

The nitrous shot will be about 200.

I would assume boost will be over 20 lbs. with a 6 lb. lower, 2 lb. upper, and MP blower.

 

[camcojb]

The nitrous shot will be about 200.

I would assume boost will be over 20 lbs. with a 6 lb. lower, 2 lb. upper, and MP blower.

What is the plan for keeping head gaskets in the truck?

Jody

 

[Guest]

I think you'd really be lucky to survive a 200 shot with no boost. I don't think anyone has oringed one of these yet? I've got mine tore apart, i'll snap some pics.

 

[camcojb]

Another issue is only having 10 head bolts/studs. It seems 22 psi or so on a built motor without nitrous is the safe limit without ever endangering head gaskets. You can obvious run more boost than that and several are, but with a street driven truck you're on the edge. With a 200 shot on top of 20+ psi of boost I do not see how the gaskets will stay in place, no matter how smoothly the nitrous is ramped in. It's still more pressure on top of boost that's already near the edge. The guy who did my motor said not even a 75 shot with 20-22 psi of boost. Motor would take it but the gaskets will fail eventually.

Jody

 

[Suavy]

Hey Rob I havn't been in the Lightning or Cobra engine yet. But what I want
to ask is do our cylinder blocks have a copper O-ring & groove on the top of deck around the cylinders? The reason i'm asking this i'v got a 5.0 w/sc 5psi boost in the shop right now that as blown head gaskets this is the 2nd time. Now I was looking in MM&FF & theres story on Hooligan Hot Rod theres a tool they are using to cut the groove in with. Its called the Groove-O-matic by Iskenderian Racing Cams i think i'm gonna try this when i get the heads back and graphite gaskets. This might be something to think about if our engines havn't got this set up,when we put more boost (14psi over) or NOS (75 shot over) to these engines. I think this would help to keep from blowing head gaskets & warpping the heads in this area.

Our head gaskets don't have copper o-rings in them but they are available. I run high boost and know many of the other guys running high boost. There is a combo of things going on here, one at high boost there are more factors than just lifting a head. There are a few guys who have ballooned their cylinders. You see your taking a block that was built to hold 380 Hp and many are pushing it to upwards of 800 hp.

So if we keep the head sealed and put heavy boost and or nitrous then where ley's the next weakest link.
I used fel-pro gaskets and put 24 lb of boost to it and my gaskets healed torqued at 80 ft lb. However, I blew 3 spark plug lobes due to detonation.
I used factory 03 head gaskets at 75 ft lb of torque and lifted both heads putting 26 lb of boost two it.

Hope this helps.

 

[camcojb]

Suavy,

What are your thoughts on 20+ psi of boost and a 200 shot on top of that? Trying to save Rob some trouble here. It would be devastating to lose a new built motor (at least it would be for me, since I just got the truck back) and Dante said not to even try what Rob is going to try. He does like the way Racetested's system get the nitrous in the engine, he just doesn't think any head gasket will hold that pressure at that boost and nitrous level on these trucks.

On a race truck it's okay to experiment and see what you can get away with, but on a street truck it's not as much fun to be hurting it.

Jody

 

[Loopy]

12K and its warped ?
Well its about time ! It should be nicely seasoned now then, a nice gentle skim and she'll be 10x better than new.
(A used base is far better than a new base)
Be wary about ringing the block, we've been doing it for years and it took a good while before people really knew what they were doing, TBH to begin with they were surviving despite the rings, not because of the rings.
Have Ford changed the gaskets lately ? Going by their higher tuned cousins over here they should be on about revision 3 by now, either that or their using the gaskets to save the rods, doing a gasket job is cheaper warranty than rods and they know it.
It might be worth getting hold of one of the specialist gasket companies and having them produce a MLS gasket for the motor, much better long term solution if SVT don't offer anything.
Number 7 shell ? Sounds like inherent supply fault or surge, I've seen you launch these things ! Have Ford caught sight of you yet ? It'd give them a heart attack. Should be easy enough to baffle up the sump though.

The old "nitrous / boost kills motors" is an old one and will run and run.
A booster will take more boost when on gas than it could off gas weirdly enough and yet gas is friendlier from the engines point of view. But don't make the mistake of just presuming the way we "ramp" nitrous in gently is the secret, theres a lot more to it than that.
Bear in mind the racetested kit was developed on Euro / Jap grenades, not US bigblocks. If it was harsh in any way we'd know all about it 20 years ago.

Thermocycles ? Yep its a fair old whack, however you look at it but weigh up between hot boost, lean spike hit and even fast hit. Remember there is a difference so don't completely judge nitrous on history. Its come a long way from "turn of the tap" metering and its come along even further than the stuff you see today.
Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from i'm just asking you to look beyond "nitrous is nitrous is nitrous"

You had me worried for a while there Rob, I thought it was something serious.

 

[Loopy]

Camcojb > On a street vehicle i would always try to run less boost and more nitrous, favouite trick over here is to use a boost controller and have the nitrous switch in a lower boost setting. It gives you off gas performance with on gas safety and generally speaking you can run more power overall by doing it that way anyway.
Think of it this way, are you trying to save on gas costs ? So when you want more power why not use more gas ?
Trust me on this one, racetested nitrous will be kinder than any boost.

 

[camcojb]

I understand that and agree. You guys have the system to use. My questions regards trying to run 20+ psi of boost AND 200 HP of nitrous on top of that. No matter how gentle it comes on or is I do not see how our head gaskets with this block config will survive with that amount of pressure.

I could easily be wrong, I am NOT an expert on modular motors, but just seeing ten head bolts and that they already have gasket problems when running above 22 psi, I am trying to understand how Robs motor will be able to handle it.

Jody

 

[Rob]

Lubrication is a problem on number 7.

WELCOME Ryan [smilie=wavey.gif] and Yes that is true, #7 and 8 are known to have prob's, that is another reason why I DO NOT blame the n20.

Rob,
Since you're ignoring my question on your other thread..........  how much boost with how much nitrous do you plan to run?
Jody

Ah I'm sorry Bro, my heads in my a$$ lately, I wasn't ignoring you Jody, I think my med's just need to be stepped up thats all  [smilie=laugh.gif]
I was running @16-17 lbs on the stock block and spraying up to 100HP,
(that was acheived with 4 + 2 + MOTHER OF Ported Eaton's + CAI)

As Denny said now I'm going to 6 + actually 3 (now a 2.7" upper) + Magnum Powers, + CAI. And hellz ya, we ARE going to throw some serious n20 at it, 150-200 HP TO START

Hey Rob  do our cylinder blocks have a copper O-ring & groove on the top of deck around the cylinders?

I honestly don't know bro ??? I'll have to ask Sal, (or someone here must know) I haven't been to his shop since the heads came off

What is the plan for keeping head gaskets in the truck?

Jody

Jody, I aint got schitt compared to some Beast out there. Johnny juices the schitt out of his and has been blowing out Record Breaking #'s "one after the next" for 2 season's now. Many others are on the 9 sec door step with plenty of nitrous and low 10 sec runs under their belts. EVERYONE has been throwing LOTS of n20 at there's and got by,
(me, I just started earlier than most)
I have much faith in Sal, the Engine Shop, + the Machine Work being done for starters.
And to me, that alone is my Ace in the hole. And as Loopy just said, NOTHING BETTER THAN A SEASONED MOTOR PUT BACK INTO SPEC   Sup Loopy, HAPPY NEW YEAR PAL  :smt030

Plus Sal is building me a "Nitrous Motor", and we are making certain changes especially for that purpose, and Sal knows EXACTLY what changes need to be made.
Then we are also using the Magnum Powers which is known to NOT hammer the boost all at once like other aftermarket S/C's, and then of course the MAIN difference I have over EVERYONE, is I run the Race Tested Kit, (Nothing compares to the options and delivery choices I have with this system) and you truly have to experience these controls and Solenoids to see what they are capable of doing.

And then in keeping with my "only stress it when needed thinking", we are only looking for 475-500 HP off spray and 600-650 on spray. So as far as normal street driving, I will not even begin to be putting this motor under dangerous levels or stress on a daily basis.
Some people like to say I WANT MY POWER ALL THE TIME, well guess what, unlike 95-98% of the 10 sec L's out there, I WILL.

I will NOT have to change pulleys
I will NOT have to re-tune
I will NOT have to run C16
I will NOT have to do anything.
All I have to do is put my foot to the floor, and I WILL HAVE ALL OF IT 24/7
BUT WILL NOT NEED IT, NOR NEED TO PUT THE TRUCK UNDER THAT STRESS OTHER THAN SPECIAL OCASSIONS AND RACE DAY.

I agree 100% on NOT over boosting it too, that is the reason I choice the awesome Magnum Powers. This blower needs to be spun HARD and FAST to put down the massive boost it's capable of putting out, so again on the daily driving, I will have myself a 500HP Beast capable of 11's off spray (I should hope) and then ONLY when needed, I can launch that bad boy with the new bullet proff Factory Tech Forged Billet Total Domination Converter, and spray the sucker into some new best ET's and chase the 10 second dream.

WE HAVE NO PLANS TO OVER DO IT, and in fact, will only be using about 1/2 the power these Rods are capable of. Sal assures me the NEW AND IMPROVED SVT Gaskets are the best to use, and I have faith with dead straight surfaces, and those ARP's, I WILL BE JUST FINE.