They are working good on my motor!
Trickflow stats....
Sat down and went thru my files for some Trickflow cylinder head numbers...
This thread is meant to show my personal experience with the cylinder heads. There are plenty of other opinions and threads about others experiences with these heads, this is mine and my shops experience and its true to form with no elaboration or covering up of anything..
First off the trickflow valve covers are garbage, I used them when they first came out thinking they were going to be great and because they looked good but PCV issues and stupid bolts that didnt hold the harnesss etc... kept me from ever using them again.
Now onto the cylinder heads but some back story first for those that dont know....
Back in 2008 I went to SEMA and met with the Trickflow guys. They had a head on display and we talked about timeline for release as well as the advantages and changes made for this head.
I had dealt with garbage wrongly inserted PI Heads for a few years where the steel insert was used in a spark plug boss that was already chewed up so these builds would not tolerate much timing etc... so I was excited to work with these new heads.
In the middle of 2009 IIRC I got the first set of heads and immediatly took them to Michael at L&M engines. He took the time to check the valvetrain geometry and figured out the head should have a specific camshaft. This info is available on the L&M website here Trick Flow Cylinder Head & Camshaft Issues
He also noted that only a certain amount of cam lift could be used (.580 at the valve) before you got into valve spring bind. Performance was not affected by this limited lift compared to a PI Head because of the other changes made to the head which improved swirl among other things. Which leads me to the first failures I ever got to see for myself in a TF Head....
Using the wrong camshaft..
The first few failures that were blamed on the parts used in the Trickflow head were actually two fold... 1, using the wrong cam with too much lift and 2, installing the camshaft incorrectly.
I have seen it first hand here at my shop. Customer or another shop installs heads and just swaps over the PI Cams the engine already had, without knowing or checking the specs or for valve spring bind. Vehicle runs fine initially but eventually kicks off a keeper or rocker and damage occurs.... Most likely the cams were also installed with the followers in place. Cams should always be installed with no followers, cam caps torqued to spec and then make sure the cam spins freely in the head, then install followers... Not only is this not done correctly most of the time but they wind up using the wrong specs for cam tower cap bolts.
Ok so, down to the numbers... Hold your hat...
Since 2009 I have sold 297 sets of these heads and personally installed 144 sets of these heads, with one failure and that failure was one tulip'd valve due to a bad injector connector.
Now there is no doubt there have been failures and that the heads do not use the absolute highest quality parts in them but these heads do use parts that will last and work well for many miles. My own personal shop truck that I built for a customer 12+ years ago runs these heads with a basic stage 2 cam and has racked up alot of miles with zero issues. My local builds, my not so local builds, my builds that are still out there running for years without issue....
Now am I lucky or is it something else?
Again I'm not saying there havent been actual parts failures or defective stuff going on with some of these heads, all parts in the aftermarket have a certain amount of that and none are perfect but what I am saying is that when I take into consideration my personal experience and knowledge about what works with these heads, what cams should be used and how to properly assemble these heads I do come to a conclusion that upsets some people who are convinced these heads are junk and that conclusion is that something was done incorrectly during installation and/or the wrong camshafts were used.
Yes, if you want to make this head better by all means get them bare and send them out for the absolute best parts you can put in them for your particular needs however that is not a 100% absolute must do for the majority of people who want to use these heads and I will stand behind my record and put that up against anyone who has little to no experience installing these heads, does so for the first time and then has a failure which they blame on the head.
I'll put it to you this way... I dont climb ladders... I pay someone to climb ladders and get on my roof.. Why? Because I dont like doing it, I dont feel safe but if I do decide one day to climb a ladder and fall off of it should I blame the ladder? If I pay a guy to climb a ladder whats the chances of him falling off compared to me?
Now I wont get into a back and forth with those who think these heads are junk or who think that no matter what they should be upgraded... I have given you my numbers, my honest experience with these heads and have acknowledged that there have been some true failures.... I just wanted to share my thoughts and experience on the subject.
[email protected]
This thread is meant to show my personal experience with the cylinder heads. There are plenty of other opinions and threads about others experiences with these heads, this is mine and my shops experience and its true to form with no elaboration or covering up of anything..
First off the trickflow valve covers are garbage, I used them when they first came out thinking they were going to be great and because they looked good but PCV issues and stupid bolts that didnt hold the harnesss etc... kept me from ever using them again.
Now onto the cylinder heads but some back story first for those that dont know....
Back in 2008 I went to SEMA and met with the Trickflow guys. They had a head on display and we talked about timeline for release as well as the advantages and changes made for this head.
I had dealt with garbage wrongly inserted PI Heads for a few years where the steel insert was used in a spark plug boss that was already chewed up so these builds would not tolerate much timing etc... so I was excited to work with these new heads.
In the middle of 2009 IIRC I got the first set of heads and immediatly took them to Michael at L&M engines. He took the time to check the valvetrain geometry and figured out the head should have a specific camshaft. This info is available on the L&M website here Trick Flow Cylinder Head & Camshaft Issues
He also noted that only a certain amount of cam lift could be used (.580 at the valve) before you got into valve spring bind. Performance was not affected by this limited lift compared to a PI Head because of the other changes made to the head which improved swirl among other things. Which leads me to the first failures I ever got to see for myself in a TF Head....
Using the wrong camshaft..
The first few failures that were blamed on the parts used in the Trickflow head were actually two fold... 1, using the wrong cam with too much lift and 2, installing the camshaft incorrectly.
I have seen it first hand here at my shop. Customer or another shop installs heads and just swaps over the PI Cams the engine already had, without knowing or checking the specs or for valve spring bind. Vehicle runs fine initially but eventually kicks off a keeper or rocker and damage occurs.... Most likely the cams were also installed with the followers in place. Cams should always be installed with no followers, cam caps torqued to spec and then make sure the cam spins freely in the head, then install followers... Not only is this not done correctly most of the time but they wind up using the wrong specs for cam tower cap bolts.
Ok so, down to the numbers... Hold your hat...
Since 2009 I have sold 297 sets of these heads and personally installed 144 sets of these heads, with one failure and that failure was one tulip'd valve due to a bad injector connector.
Now there is no doubt there have been failures and that the heads do not use the absolute highest quality parts in them but these heads do use parts that will last and work well for many miles. My own personal shop truck that I built for a customer 12+ years ago runs these heads with a basic stage 2 cam and has racked up alot of miles with zero issues. My local builds, my not so local builds, my builds that are still out there running for years without issue....
Now am I lucky or is it something else?
Again I'm not saying there havent been actual parts failures or defective stuff going on with some of these heads, all parts in the aftermarket have a certain amount of that and none are perfect but what I am saying is that when I take into consideration my personal experience and knowledge about what works with these heads, what cams should be used and how to properly assemble these heads I do come to a conclusion that upsets some people who are convinced these heads are junk and that conclusion is that something was done incorrectly during installation and/or the wrong camshafts were used.
Yes, if you want to make this head better by all means get them bare and send them out for the absolute best parts you can put in them for your particular needs however that is not a 100% absolute must do for the majority of people who want to use these heads and I will stand behind my record and put that up against anyone who has little to no experience installing these heads, does so for the first time and then has a failure which they blame on the head.
I'll put it to you this way... I dont climb ladders... I pay someone to climb ladders and get on my roof.. Why? Because I dont like doing it, I dont feel safe but if I do decide one day to climb a ladder and fall off of it should I blame the ladder? If I pay a guy to climb a ladder whats the chances of him falling off compared to me?
Now I wont get into a back and forth with those who think these heads are junk or who think that no matter what they should be upgraded... I have given you my numbers, my honest experience with these heads and have acknowledged that there have been some true failures.... I just wanted to share my thoughts and experience on the subject.
[email protected]
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
can’t wait to fire mine up. With Bullet specific cams by you
Take a pair to a high end machine shop. See if they'd be willing to run them with the installed hardware.
I know my machine shop said "trick flow should be embarrassed for selling these"
I know my machine shop said "trick flow should be embarrassed for selling these"
Remember when I said I took one of the first sets to L&M engines? Michael took them apart and said everything that is supplied will work just fine for most applications. Of course upgrading those items would help if you have something that would require it but by no means is what TF supplies junk.Take a pair to a high end machine shop. See if they'd be willing to run them with the installed hardware.
I know my machine shop said "trick flow should be embarrassed for selling these"
And.... In my almost 40 years of being in the automotive industry I can tell you one thing about most "machine shops" and that is what do you honestly think they are going to tell you Dustin? Take them a set of heads that really dont need upgrading which makes them no money or "Oh hell yeah, you need to upgrade this junk" so they make some money... Think about it and also think about the numbers I posted and the logical conclusions you come to when you think about most of these failures...
If I've sold and installed that many sets of heads, how many sets do you think Summit or Trickflow have sold total? And if that number is in the thousands then were is the "absolute junk" threads and opinions from the hundreds or thousands of broken valves, valve guides etc...????? I dont see it, but what I do see is a set of heads from time to time that someone installs, installs wrong and/or installs the wrong cams and then blames it on trickflow. Thats the majority of these failures.
I wont name names but I can tell you for certain three "failures" posted on this site are directly attributed to installation error and wrong cams.
[email protected]
Remember when I said I took one of the first sets to L&M engines? Michael took them apart and said everything that is supplied will work just fine for most applications. Of course upgrading those items would help if you have something that would require it but by no means is what TF supplies junk.
And.... In my almost 40 years of being in the automotive industry I can tell you one thing about most "machine shops" and that is what do you honestly think they are going to tell you Dustin? Take them a set of heads that really dont need upgrading which makes them no money or "Oh hell yeah, you need to upgrade this junk" so they make some money... Think about it and also think about the numbers I posted and the logical conclusions you come to when you think about most of these failures...
If I've sold and installed that many sets of heads, how many sets do you think Summit or Trickflow have sold total? And if that number is in the thousands then were is the "absolute junk" threads and opinions from the hundreds or thousands of broken valves, valve guides etc...????? I dont see it, but what I do see is a set of heads from time to time that someone installs, installs wrong and/or installs the wrong cams and then blames it on trickflow. Thats the majority of these failures.
I wont name names but I can tell you for certain three "failures" posted on this site are directly attributed to installation error and wrong cams.
[email protected]
I didn't took mine in for upgrades to fix damage. So he wasn't selling me anything.
He said the castings were great and he liked the design.
And l&m saying it should work for most applications sounds like a line of shit.
I've yet to see you prove a single failure I've listed was cams or install issues.
I have a set of Trick Flows head for three or four years and the only thing I install was the Bullet cams and I'm making 683 at the wheels & 682 torque !!! Maybe I have been lucky 🏁 🏁 🏁
So he said he liked the castings and the design but you had better pay me to upgrade the other junk correct? You know the other "junk" that has served the majority of the users with no issues.I didn't took mine in for upgrades to fix damage. So he wasn't selling me anything.
He said the castings were great and he liked the design.
And l&m saying it should work for most applications sounds like a line of shit.
I've yet to see you prove a single failure I've listed was cams or install issues.
Personally I chose to trust the guy that checked the valve train geometry and came to the conclusion that you should have a specific cam for these heads to get the most out of them. Mike at L&M is head and shoulders over most others in his field and he is the single reason why specific cams are on the market for these heads. Others may pass off what Mike did as their own knowledge but they are not the ones that came up with it to begin with so yeah if Mike at L&M says the parts used are good for the majority of applications I trust him and I did trust him time and time again with no parts failures in any of the builds I have done here in house. From Lightning and Harleys making mid 500's to high 700's, from Eaton to 3.4 Whipple trucks, from 4.6 N/A Mustangs to pro charged built 4.6 Mustangs... Every single one are straight out of the box installed with ZERO issues.
Lastly if you want me to prove a failure due to camshaft or installation error thats easy...
The one you or someone else listed here with the picture of the cracked valve guide... Installation error or too big of a cam for certain. A valve guide only breaks and cracks if the valve is allowed to move side to side. A valve guide by definition is a "GUIDE" not a moving part that can crack. That valve was moving side to side most likely because of valve spring bind. Or the cam was too big and it "rocked" the valve tip when the valve was wide open, spring bound up with nowhere to go..
And yes they are powder metal guides but guess what, so are stock PI head guides and I've never seen one crack because you can run a big 619 lift cam in them without valve spring bind.
Speaking of valve spring bind.....
A set of cams were sold on the market place about 2 years ago... They were listed as brand new spec'd by someone who people get cams from quite often... They were listed as "Trickflow specific" cams for these vehicles...And they were sold.. BTW turns out they were 619 lift..
I get a call two weeks later. The purchaser installed them, destroyed his heads and asked for my advice on why he had a failure and intially blamed the heads After talking to him and him telling me the 619 spec I told him the guy that sold you the cams is who he needs to speak with... The well known cam seller gave him his money back, had the cams shipped back to him and resold them but this time not advertised as trickflow specific. He also left the guy hanging to get his heads fixed and whatever else damage occured.
And again, I dont want to name names but I can read between the lines, look at pictures and logically come to a conclusion, especially when the person has very limited knowledge on how to install the heads and cams and then has a failure... Most people do not have the correct tool for installing the follower after the cam has been installed. "Popping them in" with a screwdriver is not correct.
As I have said and I will repeat again, there have been failures that are directly related to the product itself. I'm not saying Trickflow is immune to that, I'm just saying that if they were using "junk" in thousands and thousands of cylinder heads that they produce and sell, along with the hundreds of sets that I have sold and personally installed you would think you would see larger numbers of failures, but you dont.
And as I said in my opening post "This thread is meant to show my personal experience with the cylinder heads. There are plenty of other opinions and threads about others experiences with these heads, this is mine and my shops experience and its true to form with no elaboration or covering up of anything.. " If you want to bash Trickflow please do so elsewhere because from my personal experience, which is vast and comes from a knowledgeable reputable shop Trickflow sells a quality product that works and works well.
The numbers dont lie
[email protected]
You're putting words in his mouth.So he said he liked the castings and the design but you had better pay me to upgrade the other junk correct? You know the other "junk" that has served the majority of the users with no issues.
Personally I chose to trust the guy that checked the valve train geometry and came to the conclusion that you should have a specific cam for these heads to get the most out of them. Mike at L&M is head and shoulders over most others in his field and he is the single reason why specific cams are on the market for these heads. Others may pass off what Mike did as their own knowledge but they are not the ones that came up with it to begin with so yeah if Mike at L&M says the parts used are good for the majority of applications I trust him and I did trust him time and time again with no parts failures in any of the builds I have done here in house. From Lightning and Harleys making mid 500's to high 700's, from Eaton to 3.4 Whipple trucks, from 4.6 N/A Mustangs to pro charged built 4.6 Mustangs... Every single one are straight out of the box installed with ZERO issues.
Lastly if you want me to prove a failure due to camshaft or installation error thats easy...
The one you or someone else listed here with the picture of the cracked valve guide... Installation error or too big of a cam for certain. A valve guide only breaks and cracks if the valve is allowed to move side to side. A valve guide by definition is a "GUIDE" not a moving part that can crack. That valve was moving side to side most likely because of valve spring bind. Or the cam was too big and it "rocked" the valve tip when the valve was wide open, spring bound up with nowhere to go..
And yes they are powder metal guides but guess what, so are stock PI head guides and I've never seen one crack because you can run a big 619 lift cam in them without valve spring bind.
Speaking of valve spring bind.....
A set of cams were sold on the market place about 2 years ago... They were listed as brand new spec'd by someone who people get cams from quite often... They were listed as "Trickflow specific" cams for these vehicles...And they were sold.. BTW turns out they were 619 lift..
I get a call two weeks later. The purchaser installed them, destroyed his heads and asked for my advice on why he had a failure and intially blamed the heads After talking to him and him telling me the 619 spec I told him the guy that sold you the cams is who he needs to speak with... The well known cam seller gave him his money back, had the cams shipped back to him and resold them but this time not advertised as trickflow specific. He also left the guy hanging to get his heads fixed and whatever else damage occured.
And again, I dont want to name names but I can read between the lines, look at pictures and logically come to a conclusion, especially when the person has very limited knowledge on how to install the heads and cams and then has a failure... Most people do not have the correct tool for installing the follower after the cam has been installed. "Popping them in" with a screwdriver is not correct.
As I have said and I will repeat again, there have been failures that are directly related to the product itself. I'm not saying Trickflow is immune to that, I'm just saying that if they were using "junk" in thousands and thousands of cylinder heads that they produce and sell, along with the hundreds of sets that I have sold and personally installed you would think you would see larger numbers of failures, but you dont.
And as I said in my opening post "This thread is meant to show my personal experience with the cylinder heads. There are plenty of other opinions and threads about others experiences with these heads, this is mine and my shops experience and its true to form with no elaboration or covering up of anything.. " If you want to bash Trickflow please do so elsewhere because from my personal experience, which is vast and comes from a knowledgeable reputable shop Trickflow sells a quality product that works and works well.
The numbers dont lie
[email protected]
I had a broken valve guide.
I took my heads in and said install bronze guides, these springs im providing and replace the bent valve
When I picked up my heads, already complete and him having gained nothing but labor rates on work that I had asked for without his advice, did he then offer his thoughts on the heads.
My valve guide was broken.
Cams were installed less rollers. Roller followers were installed after cam caps were torqued.
Cam lift was .550
The heads had 13,000 miles before a failure was noted.
So it wasn't install error. I'm not a fucking retard.
And the cam specs were well within reason for the heads.
Cams were installed less rollers. Roller followers were installed after cam caps were torqued.
Cam lift was .550
The heads had 13,000 miles before a failure was noted.
So it wasn't install error. I'm not a fucking retard.
And the cam specs were well within reason for the heads.
You've never seen a pi with a cracked valve guide?
My stock 104,000 motor had one lol.
I must be a fucking anomaly.
My stock 104,000 motor had one lol.
I must be a fucking anomaly.
I'll take your word for it Dustin, no big deal. I understand things can happen, its why they happen that I really care about.
Like my original post stated, this is just my experience with these heads and I'm not saying failures have not happened.
Sadly failure analysis is rarely if ever done when something breaks so people will just summize what they think happened based on what they see.
Conclusion, these are good proven heads right out of the box with a few failures mixed in with the thousands of units sold and those failures are because of various reasons with each having a different root cause.
[email protected]
Like my original post stated, this is just my experience with these heads and I'm not saying failures have not happened.
Sadly failure analysis is rarely if ever done when something breaks so people will just summize what they think happened based on what they see.
Conclusion, these are good proven heads right out of the box with a few failures mixed in with the thousands of units sold and those failures are because of various reasons with each having a different root cause.
[email protected]
Using the incorrect cam/spring combo is a situation Trickflow has by their own doing. They advertised compatibility with PI cams. While true to some extent, it is not the complete same compatibility. And there are many who will make mistakes with their choices and test procedures.
If I ever change to new 2v heads, I will use Trickflow race castings. And have them worked by a good cylinder head porter and assembler. For a mild rebuild, the out of box Trickflow stuff would suffice.
Jim
If I ever change to new 2v heads, I will use Trickflow race castings. And have them worked by a good cylinder head porter and assembler. For a mild rebuild, the out of box Trickflow stuff would suffice.
Jim
There was (someone) that spec cams with over 600 lift ..springs that come with the trick flow heads will go into coil bind before that.
Its not the springs that dont allow high lift cams like that. You cant just toss a bigger spring in that will allow for anything over .580 at the valve.There was (someone) that spec cams with over 600 lift ..springs that come with the trick flow heads will go into coil bind before that.
[email protected]
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Lightning Rodder
Join our Lightning Rodder community to discuss the supercharged Ford F150 SVT and Harley Davidson edition pickup.
Full Forum Listing
