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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was looking at the new predator engine for the new V8 Raptor truck. The engine is a truck version of the 5.2L predator in the GT500. The truck 5.2L is supposed to have a torque converter different from a DCT.

I was thinking… wouldn’t it be badass (plausible) to have one in our Lighting’s? Worth it? I’m talking Supercharger and all. Drop in and run a stand-alone setup?

Thoughts?
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Cool yes but why when you can make north of 700hp at the rear tire easily with our current combinations....

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I’m making north of 700HP with current engine build but I want reliability! To much to ask for I know especially when you want to street a 850HP L like I was with last setup.
 

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I was looking at the new predator engine for the new V8 Raptor truck. The engine is a truck version of the 5.2L predator in the GT500. The truck 5.2L is supposed to have a torque converter different from a DCT.

I was thinking… wouldn’t it be badass (plausible) to have one in our Lighting’s? Worth it? I’m talking Supercharger and all. Drop in and run a stand-alone setup?

Thoughts? View attachment 548491
It's not a different converter.

The raptor has the 10r the gt500 has a tremec 7 speed with a dct.

The truck engine has a few differences as noted on a few forums based on part numbers. Manifolds, possibly cams. But for intents and purposes it's a gt500 motor.

A built coyote with a turbo is probably similar cost and and more reliable.

You're looking at aftermarket ecu's with either setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It's not a different converter.

The raptor has the 10r the gt500 has a tremec 7 speed with a dct.

The truck engine has a few differences as noted on a few forums based on part numbers. Manifolds, possibly cams. But for intents and purposes it's a gt500 motor.

A built coyote with a turbo is probably similar cost and and more reliable.

You're looking at aftermarket ecu's with either setup.
Thanks for the clear up on the transmission stuff.

5.0 would probably be cheaper..
 

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Cool, absolutely, but the cost and complication of the swap for 700HP just doesnt make sense to me. You can easily make 700hp from a 2v 5.4 with a good set of rods, cams, and a more efficient supercharger.
 

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A GEN3 with a new PS blower will make 700+ WHP pretty reliably on a stock bottomend from everything I've seen. It seems like 800 WHP is the mark where you need to start thinking about long term reliability if I'm not mistaken. A GEN3 (I think GEN2 is as well, but not certain) truck Coyotes use SD instead of MAF which makes things easier to tune and cheaper as you don't have a MAF setup to have to upgrade. The new GT500 even uses SD instead of MAF. GEN2 Coyote is pretty robust as well and will likely be cheaper than GEN3. Probably an easier swap as well as GEN2 is port injection where GEN3 is dual port injection. I'm pretty sure that both GEN2/GEN3 Coyotes in the trucks use cams that are spec'd about the same as the Mustangs cams, but they're not the same cams because GEN2/GEN3 F150 Coyotes have a different firing order than the Mustangs Coyote. GEN1 F150 Coyote uses baby intake cams, and a relatively low CR. (by modern standards)

I think a GEN2 Coyote swapped in a L with a Whipple or TVS based blower would be a very fun ride, especially if you could upgrade to a 6R80 or 10R80. Plus unlike a 2V 5.4 a Coyote is very willing to spin which is rewarding. IDK how much effort it would take to make a L be able to run a GEN3's dual port injection. Badass fuel pumps capable off running the DI side of the fuel system would certainly be required, as would a computer that could run it.
 

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In regards to coyote SD vs gen 2 maf the real only benefit is being able to completely remove the intake tube. MAF is technically more accurate once dialed in but I do prefer SD myself (at least for aftermarket ECU). Also I have said it before but I think the coyote motor isnt any better than our 5.4 in a heavy truck without the 10r80. 6r80 doesn't do enough to help the coyote in a truck imo in the 600-1000 hp range. The 10r80 is much faster. Put a 4r100 behind a coyote and I guarantee it will be slower than a lightning at same power level... Heck the coyote could have more HP and still be slower. Now a gen3 10r80 truck is a bad b!tch though I have still outrun them with a 15 year old built motor.

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How so? If you can tune SD then it's nothing to mod. With SD you're not worried about over-oiling a filter, making sure the MAF doesn't become the a bottle neck in the intake setup, working with your tuner to get the MAF setup they prefer to tune with for your engine setup/HP level. Upgrading the MAF is not free. SD is there, and you can either tune it or you can't from everything I've seen. Look at what people are doing with the new GT500's that run SD. I'm not saying a MAF setup can't work well for supporting big power, but it is an area you have to spend to upgrade to support large power and tuning it can be a PITA, and different tuners will give you different answers on what to go with to support X HP. It was always, "should I use a BA2400 or BA2800?" "If I want to support 700 HP is a BA2600 good enough, or is a BA3000 better?" "Extender or aftermarket MAF?" Then tuners would often complain that the bigger (for lack of a better term) MAF sensors can be a PITA to get dialed in right. I'm not saying SD is necessarily better than MAF at supporting big power, it's just simpler, easy, and an area that doesn't require modding outside of your tune. It's convenient and saves $.

A N/A 5.4 isn't going to make GEN2+ Coyote power without a lot of work and money invested into it. Even 4V is going to require some effort. A Coyote with a PS blower wouldn't struggle with a 4R100 any more than a Modular with a similar blower. A 4R100 has a way of making a L feel a lot less torquey than it is. An 03/04 Cobra feels way stronger down low than a L even though it makes less lowend grunt on an engine dyno. IMO the 4R100 is the thing that holds a L back the most unless maybe you're built making really big power. Some would argue rods, or heads, or weight, but a 4R100's gearing and unwillingness to downshift leaves a lot of performance on the table. You're just using a bunch of lowend grunt to try and overcome a 4R100's poor gearing, and power robbing nature. A 6R80 would spruce a L right up, and a 10R80 would likely turn an otherwise stock L into a mid 12 second truck. A L with a 10R80 an some 3.08's would likely run harder than a L with a 4R100 and 3.73's, and then it would be a pussycat on the interstate instead of spinning 2,600 RPM's at 80 MPH. Unfortunately while people say a 6R80/10R80 swap can be done, I have yet to see anyone do it. I've seen where Foxbody guys have done the swap, so I don't see why it would be an issue for a L.

An 18+ F150 Coyote is just a Whipple, upgraded port injectors, boosted or upgrade pump, E85 and a tune away from 750+ WHP so they're nothing to half step to. But, yes a built 400+ ci, SBF with some boost is nothing to half step to either.
 

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Definitely apples and oranges but your original statement was SD is "easier" to tune than MAF. I have tuned 1994 SD lightning and megasquirt SD on my gen 1... Only maf vehicle I have tuned is my built gen 2. Neither is "easier", just different. Yes with a lightning you need to size the MAF correctly to your HP goals but that is easy enough to figure out. Since we are comparing trucks, no coyote trucks to my knowledge come with a MAP sensor capable of reading boost. So either go PD blower where you can put on new map sensor or pull intake off and install. Imo the 6r80 isn't a good upgrade over the 4r100 unless it's a low horsepower turtle that needs that steep first gear. The rest of the gearing isn't much better than the 4r100. Once you make over say 600 HP tuners start to leave in 2nd gear in both the 6r80 and the 10r80. The 10r80 shines as the ratios from 2-7 are much better for keeping motor in power band vs the 6r80. You are correct in that gen 2 trucks especially built ones rely on big torque to get going and I agree. But guess what coyotes don't make... Yep torque. That's why they need the gearing. For me personally I race 1/8 mile so if you can't 60' hard then you will be a turtle. I got video racing a similar HP gen 3 Whipple coyote truck vs my lightning.. we ran similar times but he got beat in the 60'.

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I think we need to recognize that you're talking about tuning an older SD based system, as opposed to the modern Ford stuff. From talking with my tuner and seeing what other tuners claim is that if you have the know-how to tune these new SD vehicles, and you aren't just only focus on learning MAF tuning then these new Fords with SD are easy to put good tunes on. My tuner claims GEN3 Coyote F150's with flex fuel and SD are easier and much less involved in tuning than GEN3 Coyote Mustang which isn't flex fuel and uses MAF. That may be mostly based on him anticipating you using E85 and the F150 being flex fuel, but IDK. I'm not saying that SD is so great that everyone needs to convert their MAF setups over to SD, only that it deletes an area that you used to have to worry about modding. When you starting modding a GEN2 L or Terminator, and you start enjoying the easy gains, hitting up against the limits of the OEM MAF and fuel system becomes a major buzz kill as now you've got to drop a bunch of money modding those area's which add nothing to perform to be able to support the area's that do add performance. So if you swap to a new Coyote based engine that uses SD and you're using a computer that's capable of supporting it then you might learn to appreciate how it simplifies modding.

Coyote has always had a way of efficiently pulling itself out of the weak spot in its RPM range better than most any other engine that's not known to be torquey down low. It does this better than a DOHC VTEC, N/A 4.6L 4V, LS1, and even better than a stock pulley GEN2 L. Let's be honest a stock L's power below 3,500 RPM's is nothing to write home about. It's lugging hard below 3,500 RPM where much like a LS1 it surges to life. The first time I drove a Coyote was a new, base model 12 Mustang GT, M6, 3.31 car. I thought its power was going to be reminiscent of a N/A, 4V Cobras power, but it wasn't. I almost felt that the engine had an extra clutch in it that allowed it to efficiently pull itself into the meat of its powerband without needing a bunch of lowend grunt. This isn't me downplay the benefits of lowend power, just me saying that Coyote doesn't need a bunch of lowend power to shine. It does a very good job of getting out of its own way in regards to getting into the meat of its power. A Coyote is definitely as torquey as any 4.6L 4V, and a 4.6L 4V with a PD (not sure why I was abbreviating positive displacement with PS) is plenty torquey downlow.

You are very correct about using 2nd gear instead of first to launch modern cars at the track. When GM locked up their computers in 2020, it gave their enthusiasts fits. People can call a 19 Camaro SS ugly all they want it is the best Camaro SS ever. It's the first year of the 10L80 (which is just a 10R80 with different tuning from GM, and a GM bellhousing pattern) and the last year that you were able to tune 9n GM's transmissions. In 2020 GM just locked their computers down so much so that even HP Tuners said, "F that, y'all have fun breaking into that setup." This was particularly problematic for people boosting their Camaros (including modding their ZL1's) who were wanting to launch in 2nd. With that said not everyone is rocking 600+ WHP, PD blown cars. The gear spread in the 6R80 and 10R80 is way more ideal than a 4R100 in most street cars and DD. A 4R100 is like a Powerglide. There's certain situations where it shines as a DR'ing trans, but is far from being the most ideal street transmission. A L (that's not some built, 700 WHP monster) needs at least 3.73's to really help motive it. A 6R80 or 10R80 would allow you to move to a 3.08 or 3.27 (not sure all the available 9.75" gear options) without sacrificing your gearing, and being much better on the highway. Plus with their tunability, they read how you're driving, and if they sense that you're driving aggressively they're not going to go right to upshifting as soon as you start letting off the throttle. They'll hold their gear, and they do a much better job of downshifting efficiently.

E40D/4R100:
1st - 2.71:1
2nd - 1.54:1
3rd - 1.00:1
4th - 0.71:1

6R80:
1st - 4.17:1
2nd - 2.34:1
3rd - 1.52:1
4th - 1.14:1
5th - 0.87 :1
6th - 0.69:1

10R80/10L80:
1st - 4.69:1
2nd - 2.98:1
3rd - 2.14:1
4th - 1.76:1
5th - 1.52:1
6th - 1.27:1
7th - 1.00:1
8th - 0.85:1
9th - 0.68:1
10th - 0.63:1

While the 10R80 definitely has gearing advantages, much of it's gearing is dedicated to highway gears as it has 3 overdrives. But yes, IMO the 10R80 is just as big a star as the GEN3 Coyote in the new F150 with V8's. It's trip how everyone acts like Ford has the worst modern 1/2 Ton transmission. IMHO it's the exact opposite. Ford understands to make Coyote shine in a truck that it needs to downshift, and it does so very willingly. 1/8 throttle can reward you with 2-3 gear downshifts. GM's tuning on the same transmission isn't as clunky or jerky when the trans is cold, but it's also less willing to downshift and tries to use the engines torque more than the gearing to pull itself under throttle. It's 3.23's aren't ideal either. Dodges ZF transmission is the most overrated thing I've ever seem. It does not give your Ram shifting performance like a modern DCT or anything. It's just okay at best. IDK, maybe it mods well, and supports big power well, but in a stockish truck it doesn't feel special. It's more hesitant to downshift than a 10R80, and otherwise just tries to be a chilled/relaxed transmission. I'm not saying it does anything bad, but I've never thought it really stood out either.

You're in the Midlands, right? Do you run at Orangeburg I'm guessing?
 

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I'm in Moncks Corner about 45 minutes from Charleston and about 1hr 20 minutes from Orangeburg/ SC motorplex. I did state I have experience tuning my stock gen 1 lightning SD to about 600hp which sucked... I now have megasquirt SD on my gen 1 (around 800hp) which is far superior to anything ever offered in a stock Ford computer imo. I also used SCT and now quarter horse to tune my gen 2 (idk maybe 900+ wheel) Aside from software the actual tuning process isn't any harder from MAF to SD. One you tune the VE table to obtain your target AF and the other you tune the MAF transfer. Pros and cons to each but no harder to get good AF. Now my main argument for the 4r100 over the 6r80 was on actual fast trucks... Not stock powered ducks lol. If you actually make power you most likely are going to launch the 6r80 in 2nd gear. Then the rest of the ratios are basically identical to the 4r100 or E4OD. If you are under 600 HP then maybe the 6r80 would make sense. 10r80 would make most any of our trucks faster unless making like 1500hp... Then you would probably be best with the 4r100 or similar. I would love to see a built 10r80 in a lightning. Now I do believe the one exception in a high power lightning with a 6r80 would be a turbo application. Can run a trans brake on them.

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Okay, from some of your posts I thought you were closer to me. I'm in Sandy Run, right outside of Cayce/Columbia. Most people around here who build 1/8 mile setups like to frequent Orangeburg. I think we're sort of debating 2 different things. I'm not saying that MAF is hard to tune in general. I don't personally tune, and it's been the go to system for most manufacturers to measure air coming into their FI engines for the last few decades. For someone like me SD is easy as popular tuners for the SD applications will be able to tune them, and I don't have to worry about modding and spending money upgrading the MAF when I start adding power. But for example most tuners will say something like, "if you're not make 700 HP then stick with a BA2600 instead of a BA3000, as it's easier to tune with." All the popular GEN3 Coyote F150 and new GT500 tuners I've seen seem to dig the SD just fine. Lund, PBD, AMRL, OZ, 5 Star, etc, all have some very impressive modern SD vehicles running around. Never seen one of them complain about them being SD instead of MAF. So if I can do just as well with a factory SD setup as a MAF setup that has to be modded to support more power and/or modifications then why would I not want the SD setup? My tuner is considered by many to be the best 18+ F150 5L tuner at the moment and he says that the GEN3 Coyote F150's are much simpler to tune on than the Mustangs. Not saying simple in terms of Mustangs being hard to tune, just that with a new 5L F150 he wants you to fill it with E85, he'll tune and adjust whatever setup you have, and you're pretty much GTG until you start to mod again. Run 87/93/E85 and the computer will adjust for it. With a Mustang he's going to tune, and adjust you on 93 until that's optimized, and then have you fill up on E85, and work to bring everything together. Now that may largely be based on the fact that the V8 F150 is a flex fuel vehicle from the factory, but if you're converting the Mustang to flex fuel then why should it matter, and require you to optimize your tune on 93, and then on E85, etc.?.? All I'm really trying to say here is that the process of tuning a new F150 with a Coyote is very simple. I don't miss the days of having to run back and forth to Rock Hill to adjust a tuning issue on my old Cobra. IDK, doesn't JJ tune on the new GT500 and GEN3 Coyote F150's and Mustangs? Maybe he has some input or opinions on the pluses and minuses to both the modern Ford SD and MAF setups.?.?

I don't disagree with you that a 6R80 isn't going to gain you much in a built/TS L over a 4R100 in a DR situation as like you said you're generally launching in 2nd with a powerful 6R80/10R80 vehicle. In a street application the 6R80's first gear will allow for a less aggressive rear gear, along with better shifting characteristics to justify it being superior. This will also benefit your overdrives. Riding on the interstate at 2,600 RPM's is lousy on a road trip, as is the transmission thinking that 4th is ideal in a 35 MPH zone, and especially on an incline where it doesn't want to downshift until it has no choice. My 10 speed rarely shifts to 10th under 65-70 MPH because my tune tells it that cruising in 9th at 1,600 or 1,700 RPM's is better for it than cruising at 1,200 RPM's in 10th gear. This level of tunability is achievable in a 6R80 or 10R80, but not so much with an old 4 speed. Here you got me arguing for a 6R80, and I'm always pushing 10R80 > 6R80. I will say a 6R80 is over 50 lbs less than a 4R100, but the 4R100 is rated to handle more torque, but at the same time the 6R80 seems to have a very good reputation for being pretty robust and trouble free, unless maybe you're talking big power #'s, but I'm not huge big 6R80 expert.
 

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The last bit you mentioned there is easily tuned with a 4r100. I can fully tune when the trans upshifts and downshifts. I can also lock up converter whenever I want. I also hate going into 4th too early. I don't let it go into 4th until about 48mph in my tune. I got a 2019 f150 5.0 as well and I hate Ford's tune for the trans. Got an OZ tune and didn't care for that one either. Got PBD tune and it isn't to my liking either. Probably should have went Lund but at the time I didn't see them list a flex fuel tune.

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The last bit you mentioned there is easily tuned with a 4r100. I can fully tune when the trans upshifts and downshifts. I can also lock up converter whenever I want. I also hate going into 4th too early. I don't let it go into 4th until about 48mph in my tune. I got a 2019 f150 5.0 as well and I hate Ford's tune for the trans. Got an OZ tune and didn't care for that one either. Got PBD tune and it isn't to my liking either. Probably should have went Lund but at the time I didn't see them list a flex fuel tune.

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I always thought that you weren't supposed to tune on the 4R100? Everyone used to say, "don't adjust the firmness of your shifts (which I believe just adds hydraulic pressure in the transmission or whatnot?) with a tune, but instead use a modified VB? I tell you what Lund would be the only other popular tuner that I'd use to datalog a tune with other than my tuner from what I've seen on the market. I've got my 18 tuned by Sergio at All Motor Research Labs (AMRL) and I've been extremely happy with the tune he's put on my truck. I'm not saying to not go with Lund, as his reputation certainly precedes him, but AMRL is definitely one to consider to tune a GEN3 Coyote F150. They have quickly built up a great reputation in the GEN3 Coyote F150 community. They're holding a bunch of the records in that community.



Another thing that I hate that the 4R100 does is it's too quick to want to shift to and hold 2nd. Say you're making a left turn and you want to get on it once you straighten out, you have to work to make it hold 1st because once it shifts to 2nd it's likely going to try and lug itself into its powerband instead of shifting back to 1st.
 

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4r100 is easy to tune. I dont adjust pressures much as I have a built A1 trans with his valve body. But you can set up the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts anyway you like it. I like to extend those shifts even at light throttle quite a bit. I also like to let the truck downshift a bit quicker as well. Makes for a nice driving experience. When and how you lock the converter can make a big difference as well.

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