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I like that splined bar shown above and yeah .."not suitable for street use"..'cause bars like that COULD get you to that 80 odd percent stiffer kind of range ,,

80 percent stiffer also ain't likely when you think there's nothing more than some rubber bushings , some washers and what amounts to a long bolt ..as opposed to a splined arm and shaft..

89% stiffer we would all have nothing more than a bunch of busted sway bar end links ..
 

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regular joe
2002 True Blue
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yeah .. exactly the numbers I mentioned he stated..hotchkis, in all their sales info have a video of them actually testing and comparing the stock 00-04 f150 front bar and their own..
results are the hotchkis bar is 19% stiffer..it's right there in their own info package..so..I have no idea where this "tim skelton" guy gets his info ..but it's wack as hell....
and I looked for the video last night after posting but couldn't find it again..it is out there however
Tim was here well over a decade ago. He was a tried a true authority on the suspension performance of these trucks. He was THE guy to go to when you had a suspension question. His site can still be accessed and it has tons of information. Tim was an avid road and on track racer. He tested so many different products and setups on road tracks.

Tim passed away a few years ago and took a lot of information with him.
 

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Stiffler's guinea pig
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Tim was the MAN.

"He was a 1979 graduate of Socastee High School in Myrtle Beach SC, received his B.A. from the University of South Carolina in 1991, and operated residential and commercial painting businesses before attending law school. Tim graduated cum laude from the University of San Diego School of Law in 1998, where he was a member of the San Diego Law Review and the Order of the Coif, the national honor society for graduates in the top ten percent of their class, and voted USD's Most Outstanding Civil Clinic Student. He joined Ropers, Majeski, Kohn, and Bentley in Los Angeles in 1997 as a law clerk, was rehired as an associate upon admission to the California Bar in 1998, and became a partner in 2006. He then joined the complex litigation group in the Los Angeles office of Arent Fox as a partner in 2013. He was a skilled writer with an ability to explain difficult concepts in a clear fashion and was excellent at arguing in court from U.S. District Court to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. Tim had an early interest in the internet and intellectual property that was the cornerstone of his practice. He was an avid car, truck, and motorcycle enthusiast and modified and raced his truck when he wasn’t practicing law."
 

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Stiffler's guinea pig
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The stiffness of any torsion bar (and that's what an anti-roll bar is) can be approximated using this equation:
K = 1,178,000 x (D4 / LA2)
Where K = bar rate in lbs/inch D4 = diameter of the bar, raised to the 4th power, measured in inches L = center length of the bar, measured in inches A2 = lever arm length, squared, measured in inches and 1,178,000 is the rigidity modulus constant
When you are working with solid bars, D= the outside diameter (O.D.) of the bar. When you are working with hollow bars, D = the wall thickness of the tubing, NOT the O.D. of the bar.
So, if company "A" offers a 28mm. hollow bar for your car, and NEUSPEED offers a 28mm solid bar for your car, the solid bar will have the higher rate if the lever arm and center lengths are held constant. Do the math before purchasing a hollow bar. It may be lighter, but it's not as stiff as a solid bar if the O.D.'s are the same.
The stiffness of an anti-roll bar may also be calculated based on the torque force required to deflect the lever arm by 1 degree. The mathematical formula is different, and the unit of measure is Inch-pounds per Degree.


A number of factors determine the stiffness of a sway bar, including the bar's thickness and length, the length of the swing arm or lever, the bar material, and the bar's attachment method. But if two sway bars differ only in their diameters, all you need to know is that their relative stiffness (torsional rigidity) is proportional to the 4th power of their diameters. A small increase in diameter results in a large increase in sway bar stiffness. You can calculate the actual percent difference in the stiffness using the following formula:
larger bar diameter4/smaller bar diameter4 * 100 = percent change in stiffness.
What if one or both of the bars is hollow? That adds one more step to the calculations. After you have calculated the rate of the hollow bar based on its outside diameter (o.d.), you have to subtract the rate of a hypothetical bar that matches the inside diameter (i.d.) of the space within. To do that, you need to know the wall thickness of the hollow bar.
I'll illustrate the above by comparing three stock Mustang rear sway bars: a 21mm solid bar (1996 V6 Mustang), a 24mm hollow bar with wall thickness of 3.84mm (1998 GT Mustang) and a 27mm hollow bar with wall thickness of 5.4mm (1998 Cobra). Here are the calculations:
The V6's 21mm solid bar has a relative rate of (21^4) or 194,481
The GT's 24mm hollow bar has an i.d. of 24 - 3.84*2 = 16.32mm. and a relative rate of (24^4)-(16.32^4) = 260,838
The Cobra's 27mm hollow bar has an i.d. of 27 - 5.4*2 = 16.20mm. and a relative rate of (27^4)-(16.20^4) = 462,566 Conclusions: The 27mm Cobra bar sway bar has about 2.4 times (462,566/194,481 * 100 = 238%) the stiffness of a 21mm V6 sway bar and about 1.8 times (462,566/260,838 * 100 = 177%) the stiffness of a 24mm GT sway bar.


stiffness
%
stiffer
weight
Front
Stock
1.2" s
863104
19
Hotchkis
1.5" h
15678131
82%1
16
Hellwig
1.44" s
1777336
105%
29
Rear
Stock
0.9" s
273091
9
Hotchkis
1.0" h
3438922
26%
6
Hellwig
1.13" s
666727
144%
173

1 = The front Hotchkis bar has an estimated 5.5 mm wall thickness, so the effective stiffness = 38.1^4 - 27.1^4 (38.1mm-11mm).
2 = The rear Hotchkis has estimated 4.5mm wall thickness, so the effective stiffness = 22.86^4 - 13.86^4 (22.86-9mm).
3 = The Hellwig hardware adds another 10 lbs or so versus stock.
 
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that's all well and great , and I'm sorry to hear he's past on , but I've seen this info regarding stiffness relative to the stock parts before ..I called it out then like now
which is really all I wanted to do

if peeps think the hotchkis bar is 89% stiffer ..their gonna get a real big disappointment when they install it..

THAT's what I'm trying to point out..
 

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regular joe
2002 True Blue
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that's all well and great , and I'm sorry to hear he's past on , but I've seen this info regarding stiffness relative to the stock parts before ..I called it out then like now
which is really all I wanted to do

if peeps think the hotchkis bar is 89% stiffer ..their gonna get a real big disappointment when they install it..

THAT's what I'm trying to point out..
Please provide your data and testing to support your claim. THAT is what Tim did...then explained it in its entirety. Your turn.
 

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10 second street truck
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Please provide your data and testing to support your claim. THAT is what Tim did...then explained it in its entirety. Your turn.
ah..found something similar..


final result 19% stiffer..right from the horse' mouth as they say
That shows that the Hotchkis is 19% stiffer than another popular brand. Not 19% stiffer than stock and not stiffer than hellwig.
 

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4 or 5 years ago when I first saw the video it was on hotchkis own site .. it was titled comparing hotchkis bar to stock ..seems it has since been updated with subtitles saying "popular brand" ..

I have one in my truck .. first time I threw it left hard and fast .. eah ..it was..a little better ..19% is a fair & honest estimate..

but really the difference is BARELY notable..thus it CANNOT be 89 percent stiffer than stock ..

if it was.. I'be backing THAT up just as strongly and saying yeah you need one of those .. but the hotchkis bar ..eah ..ya don' really need it ..it's just not "all that"

with the real investment in the parts I think "eah" is a pretty dammed honest review.. and an 89% improvement would DEFINITELY warrent better than "eah"..

I don't need a long table of numbers or a nights worth of calculations to figure the 7-800 little figures I have invested might have been better spent ..

if I was expecting 89% I'd be feeling kinda "robbed"
 

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Polishing My SVTs
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Plus what size and type of tires play a big factor too...

'Cause "back-n-da-day" I bought in Hellwig big time... on a different truck... front & rear sway-bars... man, it would actually out handle my SVTL but was lacking power to back it up...
 

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10 second street truck
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4 or 5 years ago when I first saw the video it was on hotchkis own site .. it was titled comparing hotchkis bar to stock ..seems it has since been updated with subtitles saying "popular brand" ..

I have one in my truck .. first time I threw it left hard and fast .. eah ..it was..a little better ..19% is a fair & honest estimate..

but really the difference is BARELY notable..thus it CANNOT be 89 percent stiffer than stock ..

if it was.. I'be backing THAT up just as strongly and saying yeah you need one of those .. but the hotchkis bar ..eah ..ya don' really need it ..it's just not "all that"

with the real investment in the parts I think "eah" is a pretty dammed honest review.. and an 89% improvement would DEFINITELY warrent better than "eah"..

I don't need a long table of numbers or a nights worth of calculations to figure the 7-800 little figures I have invested might have been better spent ..

if I was expecting 89% I'd be feeling kinda "robbed"
So because you don't feel enough of a difference you feel it can't be 89?

If the stock bar twists to say 200 in/lbs and the new Hotchkis is 89% stiffer that's 378 in/lbs. Or only 31 ft/lbs.

I honestly doubt your butt is that calibrated.

You tried to discount a man's actual math using a generic video and your best guess.
 

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yep I posted a link to what is now a generic video .. that as I stated USED to be titled stock vs hotchkis..

I wouldn't be reciting all this over and over if that video didn't say stock vs hotchkis ..when I saw it..
THAT's why it's stuck in my head ..now

and yeah .. first time I drove it there was a wee little improvement.. not enough to really note in the years I've been driving the thing , since ..

and , as for my butt being well calibrated .. yeah , ..it is .. very much so ..
so much so that infact I've never used a timing light to set timing..just an empty road and my butt.. when I check later with the light .. it's right.. and I can feel timing differences so mynute..you can't see that I moved the dammed distributor.

adjustments small enough even I don't see it turn as I do it ..but I feel a difference ..

hell for what it's worth I keep a tote box in my truck .. weighs maybe 60 pounds..I can tell the difference if it's at the front of the box,.. the rear of the box .. or left behind at home..

I simply wanted to say hotchkis at a time had a video that showed their bar as 19% stiffer than stock .and that's how it was titled & presented when I saw it..
I have no control over editing ..
I'm sorry if a manufacturer's very own info differs from a resident expert's .. whatcha want me to do about that?
all I can do is point out a discrepancy.. I have no need to get into a pissing match over it..but I know what I watched..I know when ..just trying to keep the info out there correct when I see reason to question it

and a huge discrepancy like this between "some guy" (NDRI) and the manufacturer is reason enough to say hey ..why is this different?

you know .. so we all have good info to work from.
lol, or , discuss ..robustly ...

as for the editing / subtitles
lets think hotchkis legal dept.....might be a good idea to remove any reference to other name brands
sales& marketing ..agreed.."leading competitor" as a phrase now allows the viewer to think they might be watching something compared to another aftermarket part..

"win/win"...
like some politician coming back to dust and tidy up old twiter posts..

video demonstrates a modest improvement..
I experienced,..a modest improvement..

but 89%..no ..if that were the case I'd probably still be driving around in circles giggling like a schoolgirl who just her first orgasm
eah..that ain't happ'nin
 

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10 second street truck
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yep I posted a link to what is now a generic video .. that as I stated USED to be titled stock vs hotchkis..

I wouldn't be reciting all this over and over if that video didn't say stock vs hotchkis ..when I saw it..
THAT's why it's stuck in my head ..now

and yeah .. first time I drove it there was a wee little improvement.. not enough to really note in the years I've been driving the thing , since ..

and , as for my butt being well calibrated .. yeah , ..it is .. very much so ..
so much so that infact I've never used a timing light to set timing..just an empty road and my butt.. when I check later with the light .. it's right.. and I can feel timing differences so mynute..you can't see that I moved the dammed distributor.

adjustments small enough even I don't see it turn as I do it ..but I feel a difference ..

hell for what it's worth I keep a tote box in my truck .. weighs maybe 60 pounds..I can tell the difference if it's at the front of the box,.. the rear of the box .. or left behind at home..

I simply wanted to say hotchkis at a time had a video that showed their bar as 19% stiffer than stock .and that's how it was titled & presented when I saw it..
I have no control over editing ..
I'm sorry if a manufacturer's very own info differs from a resident expert's .. whatcha want me to do about that?
all I can do is point out a discrepancy.. I have no need to get into a pissing match over it..but I know what I watched..I know when ..just trying to keep the info out there correct when I see reason to question it

and a huge discrepancy like this between "some guy" (NDRI) and the manufacturer is reason enough to say hey ..why is this different?

you know .. so we all have good info to work from.
lol, or , discuss ..robustly ...

as for the editing / subtitles
lets think hotchkis legal dept.....might be a good idea to remove any reference to other name brands
sales& marketing ..agreed.."leading competitor" as a phrase now allows the viewer to think they might be watching something compared to another aftermarket part..

"win/win"...
like some politician coming back to dust and tidy up old twiter posts..

video demonstrates a modest improvement..
I experienced,..a modest improvement..

but 89%..no ..if that were the case I'd probably still be driving around in circles giggling like a schoolgirl who just her first orgasm
eah..that ain't happ'nin
Jesus fuck I'm not reading all this rambling.

1 that sway bar in the video is smaller than a lightning away bar.

2 that Hotchkis sway bar is smaller than the Hotchkis bar for a lightning. So regardless of title, the video is completely fucking irrelevant.

3 your ability to dial in timing vs your ability to tell minute difference in sway bars are not the same.

4 your rambling and constant back tracking make you look a fool.

5 tim says the rear is 26% stiffer, and the rear is the point of this thread.
 

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I tried to find the video with it's original title last night ..^ that was what I can find ..now..
I've looked for the original men in black movie with the two black birds that fly past the world trade center as the octo-alien baby is being born in the taxi ..that's gone thanks to editing
so is the original release of tommny boy ..that shows a GREEN satellite..subsequent releases show a blue car..
but I know it was green ..all three of the cars they used were green ..I saw them in person as they filmed that movie in my "hood..but how do I prove to you now..way across the continent..they were green ..

all gone thanks to the passage of time ..and editing
 

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10 second street truck
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12,209 Posts
I tried to find the video with it's original title last night ..^ that was what I can find ..now..
I've looked for the original men in black movie with the two black birds that fly past the world trade center as the octo-alien baby is being born in the taxi ..that's gone thanks to editing
so is the original release of tommny boy ..that shows a GREEN satellite..subsequent releases show a blue car..
but I know it was green ..all three of the cars they used were green ..I saw them in person as they filmed that movie in my "hood..but how do I prove to you now..way across the continent..they were green ..

all gone thanks to the passage of time ..and editing
It's ok boomer. Maybe a nap and you'll be better.
 

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ok cool ..the bar they show is smaller than a lightning one ..great we're getting somewhere ..see that wouldn't have come up if I had not asked wtf? ..

like I said ..I saw something that "differed"

and yeah I can understand the frustration..but pointing out that bar is smaller ..good call ..that's moving forward..

now it looks like there's a reason for the differences I was finding

a little robust discussion and a little nugget of enlightenment pops out ..

and..if the hotchkis bar I put in is only marginally better than my stock base f150 bar..then how is it an upgrade to the lightning one..?

and..I didn't call out the accuracy of anyone's butt calibration..but , dude..I will "rise to the challenge" when disrespected as I would expect you to...
 

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It's ok boomer. Maybe a nap and you'll be better.
cut off date for "boomers" is '64 dude..sorry ..born in '65 ..no soup for you.../
nice shot though..close...

noteing a lightning bar is thicker than the one tested brings a little more enlightenment..

we have 4 bars .. std f150 , hotchkis , lightning and hellwig

presumably in order of stiffness..

if the hotchkis bar tests as only 19% stiffer than the std f150.. then it probably can't be "much" compared to the lightning bar
and , if the hellwig bar is stiffer still than we don't need numbers ..we need to know the application the bar's going to be used for..
so we look to bar design
hollow for quick response ..solid for high sustained loads ..like that splined bar in a circle track car..
so what bar to choose has nothing to do with stiffness ratings ..there's only two available , one in each type so pick the bar by how you're going to use it..

numbers don't mean so much when you only have two to pick from..

so deducing..if I wanted to chase cones in a parking lot with a lightning , I'd buy the hotchkis..if I want to go road racing ..buy the hellwig..
...that's pretty simple

as for mine I might go so far as to say maybe it's not stiffer you feel but more an ease of a "turn in"..and "switch back"
'cause yeah that I think I can say I do note ..that improved
does the truck lean less..can't say I've noticed...maybe I would if it weren't lowered
 

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Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius!
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Would anyone be interested in trading me their Hotchkis set for my Hellwig set?
Why? Is the Hellwig so stiff, that when you go around corners, the inside rear tire lifts off the ground? My Ranger has front and rear Helwligs, and it does that in town on sharp hard right or left turns. So much so, the inside tire always spins on had turns. It's a pain sometimes. But man, does it go around Lake Stanley Draper Road great! I'll never remove them. Put new bushings and end links on it in 2015. Was out on that road one fine, a guy in a slammed two door Honda sport coupe with a large splitter and huge carbon fiber rear wing following me. He never got around me. Priceless!

I've thought about doing the Lightning, cause it in no way, handles as good as my old Ranger does. Too heavy!

The Hellwig bar for the rear of the Lightning, the arms go forward rather than rearward as the stock one does. Do you have to drill new holes for that?
 

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The Hellwig bar for the rear of the Lightning, the arms go forward rather than rearward as the stock one does. Do you have to drill new holes for that?
I have a custom exhaust that comes very close to the end link since, as you said the arms come forward...

I've done two sets of the Hellwig on two of my Ls. The first one I drilled into the frame rail and mounted the rear end links that way. I also mounted that one under the diff as it was lowered. This one I used the supplied mounts. Couldn't tell a difference either way though.
 

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10 second street truck
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cut off date for "boomers" is '64 dude..sorry ..born in '65 ..no soup for you.../
nice shot though..close...

noteing a lightning bar is thicker than the one tested brings a little more enlightenment..

we have 4 bars .. std f150 , hotchkis , lightning and hellwig

presumably in order of stiffness..

if the hotchkis bar tests as only 19% stiffer than the std f150.. then it probably can't be "much" compared to the lightning bar
and , if the hellwig bar is stiffer still than we don't need numbers ..we need to know the application the bar's going to be used for..
so we look to bar design
hollow for quick response ..solid for high sustained loads ..like that splined bar in a circle track car..
so what bar to choose has nothing to do with stiffness ratings ..there's only two available , one in each type so pick the bar by how you're going to use it..

numbers don't mean so much when you only have two to pick from..

so deducing..if I wanted to chase cones in a parking lot with a lightning , I'd buy the hotchkis..if I want to go road racing ..buy the hellwig..
...that's pretty simple

as for mine I might go so far as to say maybe it's not stiffer you feel but more an ease of a "turn in"..and "switch back"
'cause yeah that I think I can say I do note ..that improved
does the truck lean less..can't say I've noticed...maybe I would if it weren't lowered
The Hotchkis bar is bigger than the lightning bar. How is it less stiff?
 
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